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And really sorry but having a gay friend does not give you an authority on the topic. I'm saying there is doubt and that is why this debate is here and that is why there are people that argue for going with the default of male. They should fix it." When we found out Kiku was a man (the at birth kind), the default gender was corrected to male, and if we decide that Kiku is a transgender woman, the gender would be female.

When Big Mom uses "ore", it's used to frame her as a violent brute. Of course we dont do that because everyone makes the baseline assumption that anyone reading the wiki lives in the real world and in the real world that word is VERY offensive. (心: Heart, Mind, Soul; 体: Body; 女: woman; 男: man, If you search 体は男 心は女 (Body is male, Mind/Heart is female) on google you'll find pretty much exclusively results about transgender (Even if you don't know japanese, since it's all katakana the word トランズジェンダー sticks out pretty well among hiragana and kanji. Words are more based in concepts. My Hero Academia Creator Teases Fans with Mysterious Announcement, Pokemon Artist Shares More Godzilla Pocket Monsters, Dragon Ball Super Villain Goes Full Akira With His Latest Transformation, New Digimon Poll Reveals Curious Details About the Fandom, Black Clover Promises to Share 'Big' News at Jump Festa.

Trying to erase a character's identity is throwing the author's intents in a trash can and erasing people's identities in return (because, for some reason, a fictional character cannot represent them). The line of thought is simple, really: FANDOM says (without any room for discussion) "please use pronouns according to what the character uses or they/them", we obey and use "they/them" for one character (or, well, only their name, since the entire article got rewritten), but not for others with the same circumstances. If it's still about the "sessha", japanese pronouns don't work like english.

I mean look, we have Kiku calling herself a woman, Kiku expressing herself as a woman, Kiku saying her heart is a woman, Kin'emon (a close friend) treating Kiku like a woman, Kiku being treated like a woman by everyone up to the newest chapter and cleary accepting that as normal for her, against one guy calling her a man, which she response to by reiterating her being a woman, and then maybe if you insist on sessha, which we have discussed a lot already is not even a solid argument. And sorry, if I did edit anyone's comment, it was not my intention. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:55, September 3, 2020 (UTC), Listen, the argument that FANDOM uses is completely absurd, they have already imposed it on us in one article, and unless they force us, we will not put it in more, because it does not make sense, we are not going to apply the same rule for Kiku and Big Mom. SeaTerror (talk) 08:35, July 7, 2019 (UTC), Just as a quick note, "my heart is a woman/man" is a common phrase used by transgender people in Japan. Otokonanoka!? Cross-dressing (Mostly male to female) has also been prevalent in Japan for a very long time. It would be transphobic if I called a confirmed trans character by the gender they do not prefer. I support recognizing and emphasizing these points in the article. She uses it because she is a samurai, much like the other samurai use it. They were taught to use mainly naginata (the art of naginatajutsu), as well as the Yari spear, chains and ropes. Let me know in the comments or hit me up on Twitter @MeganPetersCB to talk all things comics and anime! If you talk about transwomen and transmen then that already incorporates their identity. So while it's for sure not as surface level as in the west, it's still a thing, the question's more what Oda considered for Kiku if you ask me, & his thoughts on it. The job of the wiki is to present information as it is given, which would, first and foremost, be that Kiku is a male. "biologically male," "biologically female," "genetically male," "genetically female," "born a man," "born a woman", Problematic phrases like those above are reductive and overly-simplify a very complex subject. It's not about dressing, but about your gender.

Those arguments now should go to the FANDOM staff who made the decision. The last two are much more prone to opinion. Something like «After a prisoner identifies Kikunojo as a legendary male samurai and Chopper asks her if she is a man, Kikunojo explains she is a "woman at heart".» If we want to have that information, be encyclopedic and not provoke negative sentiments to our readers, we can always expose how the information was revealed in the story without adding vocabulary that wasn't mentioned, like "trans", "biological", "assigned at birth", etc.
If you have never hear the use of singular they/them, you might wanna expand your horizon a bit. Just how much more explicit do you think it's gonna get in a japanese shonen manga? But there should be more information in the trivia about the various references to male-male sexuality, and people should be prepared to change it should the word of God say that Kikunojō is male. Someone being inspired and finding common ideas with someone is common. However, can we really say she was "assigned male at birth"? To me, that says it all.

So she dresses like a male and acts male because she wants to blend in so nobody looks down on her. OishiLover75 (talk)00:06, July 6, 2019 (UTC), That literally has nothing to do with Kiku. (I mean it's a heart shaped sparkling island)  (BLou-Lilie (talk) 18:54, July 9, 2019 (UTC)), Wow, I'm getting Haku-flashbacks... JouXIII (talk) 16:33, July 10, 2019 (UTC), SHE identifies as female, so all the 'they's should actually be 'she's. The same applies to other "trap" characters in Anime and Manga, including Kiku.

This discussion is literally pointless anyway since most people arguing in support of female can't even vote. Also little call out to SeaTerror, I'm pretty sure this conversation is supposed to be civil, so, behave. The term "samurai" applies only to men.

When "he" or "she", or infact any personal pronoun, is used in english translations, there is a high chance it's an assumption made by the translator based on the context.

However, there is no "female samurai" pronoun. While I do want to challenge the claim that Okama means "transvestite" specifically... Ivankov's gender is *offiicially* Newkama, which is something specific to One Piece. It is not an assumption to say "Kiku uses sessha to show her status as a samurai" when it is a pronoun specific to samurai. Also, calling Kiku transgender is putting a modern agenda on a character in a manga from a country that is based off of ancient Japan. I highly recommend checking out that handy link provided by that guy. If you really want to follow their flawed logic, ask them if we also have to change Kikunojo and Big Mom's pronouns for the same reasons, instead of asking the members of the community if they'd agree to changing them here. Using he/him pronouns for Kiku and Big Mom would be absolutely ridiculous. I'm certain an official translator knows more about japanese pronouns than we do. Drag queens are men, typically gay men, who dress like women for the purpose of entertainment. He says "He already has a wife". Regards, That Guy that Says Things (talk) 05:30, July 9, 2019 (UTC), No it is still unclear since the manga itself doesn't actually say "I'm a woman". So I don't think Kiku using "sessha" is proof she identifies as a man. This is not about being politically correct or not, it's about fact. I am also not saying Kikunojo calls themselves a "trans woman". And again, it's a samurai pronoun, there is no alternative for women. I've explained in more detail how japanese pronouns work before already, and I feel like I'm already repeating myself too much anyway.
921: Sanji assumes Kiku is in love with Kin'emon (and says he'll win her over) to which Kin'emon respons tha the already has a wife. I just want to make it clear: Kikunojo is highly probably a girl, just with a penis, and the wiki should reflect that: Kikunojo's gender and pronouns are female.
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